Imagine you have several novels on Amazon. One day you open YouTube or TikTok, and you find someone reading chapters of your books. Each video has thousands of views, and the reader is earning money from your stories. A blatant violation of copyright law. What would you do? Contact them and tell them to remove the videos?
Now suppose that when the copyright violator posted videos, your books got a huge boost in sales. Would you feel the same way about the copyright violations?
This is the situation most musicians have found themselves in. Anyone can create a cover (their own version) of someone’s song and post it. In the early days of YouTube, record companies went after the copyright violators and told them to remove the videos (covers.) But eventually, it became a pointless game of whack-a-mole. Then an unexpected thing happened. The covers brought new fans to the original artist. And everyone made more money.
Artists recognized the benefits of fans covering their songs. James Taylor goes as far as to post links to covers of his songs on his social media sites.
TikTok recently introduced a Duets feature where you can sing (play an instrument, make faces, whatever) along with a video and post it on your page. You can duet with Richard Marx or Jackson Browne right now. And more famous musicians are jumping on the trend. Instead of fighting covers, artists are encouraging them and even taking part in them. I find this interactiveness with fans smart.
Of course, writers don’t have to deal with “cover” versions of their writing. Since writing is text, a “cover” would simply be copying. But there is fan fiction. How do you feel about that? They are using your characters.
What if writers decided to offer more interaction with their readers? What if there was a way for a famous writer to write the first chapter and then let a fan write the next chapter, another fan write the next, etc. Perhaps with the famous writer writing every tenth chapter based on what came before. Imagine the popularity of being a co-author with your favorite writer. I think it is a valid idea if done correctly.
The Question
How do you feel about this copyright conundrum? If someone posted chapters of your book on their website and it resulted in you selling twice as many books, would you tell them to remove the chapters? Or would you be thankful for the extra sold books?
My experience with copyright violations. (Read after you post your comments on the question above.)
Like it or not, anything posted online will be copied eventually. I have had stories copied and reposted. At least twice, I had my entire Medium website worth of stories (hundreds) scraped and posted on a foreign website. You can’t effectively go after foreign websites. Many have tried. If they get enough pressure, they simply shut down and start a new website doing the same thing. It’s whack-a-mole again.
I know one writer who literally quit writing because they were so devastated that someone copied their stories. Then they spent an incredible amount of time and effort trying to get the copies removed. They no longer write. How sad.
I have also had music I wrote copied and posted elsewhere.
Personally, I chose to ignore copyright violations and spend my time creating something new. I feel life is too short to waste time on unethical people or those ignorant of copyright law.
An interesting note on copyright law and music covers.
Music publishing is far more confusing than book publishing.
If I decide to make a CD of cover songs, I do not have to seek permission from the original artists. I simply have to pay a royalty (for each copy of the CD sold) to the publishing company that holds the publishing rights for each song. Depending on their record deal, the artist may not get anything.
If an artist doesn’t own the songwriter/composer publishing rights to their own songs (the record company or a publishing house might), they only get paid when they sell a copy of their original CD/vinyl/streaming/etc.
Famously, Paul McCartney and John Lennon tried to buy the publishing rights to The Beatles’ music in 1969 but were outbid by ATV Music. In The 1980s the catalog became available again, but as McCartney was negotiating with the surviving Beatles and Yoko Ono to buy the catalog, his soon-to-be former pal, Michael Jackson bought the rights (later sold to Sony.) McCartney only recently brokered a deal with Sony (via a lawsuit) to own the rights to the Beatles songs he penned. The John Lennon penned songs will still be owned by Sony until 2050 (per a deal with Yoko Ono.)
Many top “legacy” artists are selling off all their rights for hundreds of millions of dollars. Which is smart, in my opinion, since that is more than they are likely to earn in their lifetime. And they can still earn money touring.
I agree with those who say unauthorized sales of their work isn't that big of a deal as long as the work is attributed to the rightful author. Those sales can serve a marketing purpose. However, when others put their name on my work and pass it off as their own, I receive no benefit. That is unacceptable, but there is nothing I can do about it.
Yes. It is frustrating. Unfortunately, you either have to ignore it and get on with life or waste time stewing about something you probably can't change. Which is not healthy.
I have a Google alert set up for when my name is mentioned in the internet. Ninety percent of the time it's because somebody has posted a pirated copy of one of my books. It's upsetting and I care, but it's too difficult to do anything about.
I guess I’m in the “I don’t sell enough of my writing for it to matter very much” camp. So I guess it probably wouldn’t bother me very much as long as I was given attribution.
I think most writers are in the “don’t sell enough” camp. I am for sure. But I know some writers who were devastated and irate when they discovered their stories had been copied or pirates. One doesn’t write anymore because of it. It is sad.
Let them eat cake! Unless they are making six figures selling my books as if they were theirs, I have no intention to play whack a mole! In most cases, the person copying the work isn’t earning any money and it’s clear who the real author is. So there’s no real harm done.
Though I’m outraged on behalf of the Beatles (and Taylor Swift and anyone else attempting to buy their masters from the conglomerates.) It would definitely make me think twice before signing a record deal, knowing that some large corporation would own my work forever.
It was very common before computers and the internet made recording and promoting yourself a realistic option (like self publishing a book.) But people were desperate to get record deals and signed away their publishing rights. It still goes on today even. With producers getting a cut of the publishing.
On the other hand, once Elvis became a superstar, his management demanded 50% of publishing to record your song. Which many songwriters gladly agreed to to get their song recorded by Elvis. Except Mark James who wrote Suspicious Minds, one of Elvis’ biggest hits. He refused to give up his publishing. But Elvis loved the song and the record company knew it was a hit and it would earn plenty of money, so Elvis recorded the song without getting the publishing.
But writers usually give up their publishing rights to a book publisher when they sign a traditional book publishing contract. They get a royalty for each copy sold (after they pay the publisher's expenses, like the mechanical royalty musicians get) but the publisher then controls the publishing rights to their book. For at least 35 years (based on copyright law.) Another good reason to self publish.
This is a sensitive issue. As an artist who had artwork stolen many times, well, I'm still the starving artist so-to-speak. The most outrageous encounter was when someone bragged they wanted to save some money ($20 in mid 80s!) so they got someone to copy my posters! I was speechless at his total lack of ethics and insensitivity. Visual artists have struggled with this for ages as well as musicians. The composer to Yes, we have no bananas..." was taken to court because the beginning of the music sounded like the opening bars to Handel's "Hallelujah Chorus." Of course it didn't stand because of all the differences between the two songs. They say "Imitation is the highest form of flattery" but does it pay bills? Personally, life is too short to let the thief waste my time and energy. It's my reputation where I draw the line.
I am also a musician so I understand. As you mention, unauthorized copying has always been around (art forgeries, for example) but the digital age has made it ridiculously easy for anything in a digital format.
As you said, it is often not worth the time and effort to fight it, but it stings none the less. Copying is one thing, but it is worse when they take credit for something you did.
I've known the copyright fanatics involved in tradpub, especially those who attack fanfiction. That led to an estrangement between me and a friend over my reading of fanfiction (and writing it to dig myself out of a bad case of writer's block). She wasn't a writer but her husband was, and well, this was the '90s. He not only wrote his own stuff but work-for-hire for several major media properties and they were both raging on the subject. Now, I have more cynical suspicions that it was fear of losing the (then significant) work-for-hire to fanfiction, but then? Their vehemence really set me aback, especially considering some of their alleged political leanings.
As far as I'm concerned, if someone writes fanfic about your work, it means you've moved them enough that they make up stories about your characters. That they daydream about your characters. That your creation is strong enough to make them care.
The pirates? These days, a lot of those sites serve as virus distribution sites. Or else they're covering for locations where buying those books are difficult. Yeah, there's always going to be the ripoff sorts, but they're also the sorts who might shoplift your book at a sales venue (surprisingly, I have had books shoplifted from a sales table at a craft fair). I tried to stay on top of it a while back with DCMA notices, then gave it up because it ended up being worthless. Does it screw things up occasionally, especially with Amazon? So far, I've not gotten bitten by that, but I've heard stories from others who have experienced problems.
I completely forgot about Fan fiction. I will update my story to include it. And I tend to feel the way you do. That fan fiction is usually a form of flattery from real fans. And not likely to affect your earnings. Except maybe to boost them.
But I agree, it is fairly pointless to go after pirates.
I’m with T Van Santana — not enough sales to be anything but thrilled by the extra attention. (Sales in this case being for Deb’s two kids books. Available on Amazon, search for “Caitlyn’s Adventure” or “Debra Tanguy Herlocker”.) [we can do plugs here, yes? 🙃]
Which is really weird, in that we have electronic versions of her books you can read on her website, www.caitlynsadventure.com, because we figure our market (if I can use that term without seeming overly pompous) is people who buy the physical book so they can show the drawings to kids as they read, the kid finds the ladybug in the drawing, and so on. I posted e-versions so that parents can read through the book before buying. Don’t know that anyone actually has, but it might happen. My point being, pirated versions of her books online doesn’t actually hurt us.
OTOOH, Roz Warren, who has written and SOLD many more books than we ever will, has found many of her old books on pirate sites. Roz doesn’t care. “They're all out of print, so I'm actually fine with it. If pirates are out there reading my humor collections and getting a good laugh, that's okay.”
It is very hard to do anything about copyright violations other than requesting that they be removed. You can threaten legal action, but how many writers can actually afford that? Few, I imagine. And is it worth the effort, time, and expense? If you publish online, you should expect it.
Fortunately, writing is not my primary source of income. So I can afford not to worry about it. Plus, I doubt many people read those scraper or pirate websites. And if they do, they probably don’t buy books anyway.
My gut instinct is I would be grateful for the extra sales, but then I don't sell many books 😄 so I might feel differently if I did. In any case, so long as there's attribution that it's my work, I would be inclined to be chill about it, depending upon who it was.
Now, I have had my literal words stolen without attribution, and by someone I considered a friend. That stung. I did not like that at all.
Ouch. That would hurt. Some people think if they aren’t making money, they are free to use whatever they want to. Others think everything online should be free. Copyright law was originally designed for print publishers. It doesn’t work as well in the digital age where copying is easy.
I imagine Stephen King might feel different about my hypothetical conundrum than a struggling writer who needs the extra book sales money. Or King might be so rich he simply doesn’t care. Or if he does care, he can afford to pay someone else to deal with it.
I agree with those who say unauthorized sales of their work isn't that big of a deal as long as the work is attributed to the rightful author. Those sales can serve a marketing purpose. However, when others put their name on my work and pass it off as their own, I receive no benefit. That is unacceptable, but there is nothing I can do about it.
Yes. It is frustrating. Unfortunately, you either have to ignore it and get on with life or waste time stewing about something you probably can't change. Which is not healthy.
I have a Google alert set up for when my name is mentioned in the internet. Ninety percent of the time it's because somebody has posted a pirated copy of one of my books. It's upsetting and I care, but it's too difficult to do anything about.
Sadly, it is probably better not to know. It is a shame there are so many unethical people in the world.
I guess I’m in the “I don’t sell enough of my writing for it to matter very much” camp. So I guess it probably wouldn’t bother me very much as long as I was given attribution.
I think most writers are in the “don’t sell enough” camp. I am for sure. But I know some writers who were devastated and irate when they discovered their stories had been copied or pirates. One doesn’t write anymore because of it. It is sad.
Let them eat cake! Unless they are making six figures selling my books as if they were theirs, I have no intention to play whack a mole! In most cases, the person copying the work isn’t earning any money and it’s clear who the real author is. So there’s no real harm done.
Though I’m outraged on behalf of the Beatles (and Taylor Swift and anyone else attempting to buy their masters from the conglomerates.) It would definitely make me think twice before signing a record deal, knowing that some large corporation would own my work forever.
It was very common before computers and the internet made recording and promoting yourself a realistic option (like self publishing a book.) But people were desperate to get record deals and signed away their publishing rights. It still goes on today even. With producers getting a cut of the publishing.
On the other hand, once Elvis became a superstar, his management demanded 50% of publishing to record your song. Which many songwriters gladly agreed to to get their song recorded by Elvis. Except Mark James who wrote Suspicious Minds, one of Elvis’ biggest hits. He refused to give up his publishing. But Elvis loved the song and the record company knew it was a hit and it would earn plenty of money, so Elvis recorded the song without getting the publishing.
But writers usually give up their publishing rights to a book publisher when they sign a traditional book publishing contract. They get a royalty for each copy sold (after they pay the publisher's expenses, like the mechanical royalty musicians get) but the publisher then controls the publishing rights to their book. For at least 35 years (based on copyright law.) Another good reason to self publish.
This is a sensitive issue. As an artist who had artwork stolen many times, well, I'm still the starving artist so-to-speak. The most outrageous encounter was when someone bragged they wanted to save some money ($20 in mid 80s!) so they got someone to copy my posters! I was speechless at his total lack of ethics and insensitivity. Visual artists have struggled with this for ages as well as musicians. The composer to Yes, we have no bananas..." was taken to court because the beginning of the music sounded like the opening bars to Handel's "Hallelujah Chorus." Of course it didn't stand because of all the differences between the two songs. They say "Imitation is the highest form of flattery" but does it pay bills? Personally, life is too short to let the thief waste my time and energy. It's my reputation where I draw the line.
I am also a musician so I understand. As you mention, unauthorized copying has always been around (art forgeries, for example) but the digital age has made it ridiculously easy for anything in a digital format.
As you said, it is often not worth the time and effort to fight it, but it stings none the less. Copying is one thing, but it is worse when they take credit for something you did.
Thanks for responding, Holly.
I've known the copyright fanatics involved in tradpub, especially those who attack fanfiction. That led to an estrangement between me and a friend over my reading of fanfiction (and writing it to dig myself out of a bad case of writer's block). She wasn't a writer but her husband was, and well, this was the '90s. He not only wrote his own stuff but work-for-hire for several major media properties and they were both raging on the subject. Now, I have more cynical suspicions that it was fear of losing the (then significant) work-for-hire to fanfiction, but then? Their vehemence really set me aback, especially considering some of their alleged political leanings.
As far as I'm concerned, if someone writes fanfic about your work, it means you've moved them enough that they make up stories about your characters. That they daydream about your characters. That your creation is strong enough to make them care.
The pirates? These days, a lot of those sites serve as virus distribution sites. Or else they're covering for locations where buying those books are difficult. Yeah, there's always going to be the ripoff sorts, but they're also the sorts who might shoplift your book at a sales venue (surprisingly, I have had books shoplifted from a sales table at a craft fair). I tried to stay on top of it a while back with DCMA notices, then gave it up because it ended up being worthless. Does it screw things up occasionally, especially with Amazon? So far, I've not gotten bitten by that, but I've heard stories from others who have experienced problems.
I completely forgot about Fan fiction. I will update my story to include it. And I tend to feel the way you do. That fan fiction is usually a form of flattery from real fans. And not likely to affect your earnings. Except maybe to boost them.
But I agree, it is fairly pointless to go after pirates.
Thanks, Joyce.
I’m with T Van Santana — not enough sales to be anything but thrilled by the extra attention. (Sales in this case being for Deb’s two kids books. Available on Amazon, search for “Caitlyn’s Adventure” or “Debra Tanguy Herlocker”.) [we can do plugs here, yes? 🙃]
OTOH we also had Deb’s books show up on a pirate website for books, which I wrote about: https://jherlocker.medium.com/conversation-with-my-wife-27-fe93f559dd92
Which is really weird, in that we have electronic versions of her books you can read on her website, www.caitlynsadventure.com, because we figure our market (if I can use that term without seeming overly pompous) is people who buy the physical book so they can show the drawings to kids as they read, the kid finds the ladybug in the drawing, and so on. I posted e-versions so that parents can read through the book before buying. Don’t know that anyone actually has, but it might happen. My point being, pirated versions of her books online doesn’t actually hurt us.
OTOOH, Roz Warren, who has written and SOLD many more books than we ever will, has found many of her old books on pirate sites. Roz doesn’t care. “They're all out of print, so I'm actually fine with it. If pirates are out there reading my humor collections and getting a good laugh, that's okay.”
Plug away, my friend!
It is very hard to do anything about copyright violations other than requesting that they be removed. You can threaten legal action, but how many writers can actually afford that? Few, I imagine. And is it worth the effort, time, and expense? If you publish online, you should expect it.
Fortunately, writing is not my primary source of income. So I can afford not to worry about it. Plus, I doubt many people read those scraper or pirate websites. And if they do, they probably don’t buy books anyway.
My gut instinct is I would be grateful for the extra sales, but then I don't sell many books 😄 so I might feel differently if I did. In any case, so long as there's attribution that it's my work, I would be inclined to be chill about it, depending upon who it was.
Now, I have had my literal words stolen without attribution, and by someone I considered a friend. That stung. I did not like that at all.
Ouch. That would hurt. Some people think if they aren’t making money, they are free to use whatever they want to. Others think everything online should be free. Copyright law was originally designed for print publishers. It doesn’t work as well in the digital age where copying is easy.
I imagine Stephen King might feel different about my hypothetical conundrum than a struggling writer who needs the extra book sales money. Or King might be so rich he simply doesn’t care. Or if he does care, he can afford to pay someone else to deal with it.
All those possibilities seem equally probable 😏😄
Maybe he will reply and we will know. 🤣